The mountains are calling - 10/17/2022

What’s not to like? Friendly folks, mountains, rivers, lakes, streams, trees, amazing southern cuisine. Minimal traffic, solid museums, kid friendly everything, great weather, 4 mild seasons, low taxes, low cost of living, great downtown, hunting, fishing, backpacking, And the list goes on. Our family loves East Tennessee and there’s no better place in East Tennessee than Knoxville.

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Not somewhere I would live ever again - 11/10/2021

I lived in Knoxville for 3 years and still go there to see a doctor of mine until my treatment is over. You could not pay me to return to Knoxville now that I foster kids. Crime is so high to be such a small city. Knoxville crime per capita is worse than Charlotte, NC. Raleigh, NC. and New York, NY. Seriously? Raleigh didn’t surprise me but Knoxville being worse than Charlotte and NYC did. And property crime? Knoxville is worse per capita than Baltimore, MD. Detroit, MI. and Chicago, IL. Let that sink in. You car is safer in Baltimore, Detroit, and Chicago than it is in Knoxville. When I first moved to Knoxville it wasn’t the safest place in the world but in West Knoxville I could go to the pilot when I got of work and feel safe. By the time I moved there was lots loitering there, people doing drug deals in the parking lots, etc. I definitely didn’t feel safe like I used to. Knoxville also has a big car theft problem so you always have to remember to keep your keys with you. I hated this as I normally leave my keys in my car under the radio and in cold months I like to leave my car running while I go inside places so it stays warm. Luckily I can do this again since moving. Knoxville just seems to be on a downward spiral and despite any efforts from local government to improve its far too little too late.

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Awesome City/County! - 10/21/2021

This is my second residence in Knoxville and I'm loving my return after a 30 year absence. I love the city and county and the atmosphere surrounding them. What's not to love about this wonderful city at the foothills of the country's most beautiful mountain range?

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One of the few affordable mountain cities left. - 2/22/2021

Most cities with this proximity to mountains are no longer affordable. A stones throw from the most visited national park in America, Knoxville is unrivaled for recreation. Whether you're in to boating, mountain biking, hiking or horse riding, this area has you covered. Tons of beautiful lakes in the area provide endless boating fun, and Knoxville's thriving urban core gives Nashville a run for its money with some of the State's best dining and theaters. No wonder people are flocking to Knoxville.

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Pog - 2/19/2021

I live here. It good.

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Yeeehah - 9/15/2020

I moved from that hell hole in January of 2020. 28 years there was enough of the high crime, low wages and rainy cold weather from October till May. I now live at the beach again and am enjoying sunny weather every day. Here it is September and I have not been out of shorts since moving in January. Do not miss the red necks with Ain't skeerd bumper stickers and a fire arm in the back window. Every day we heard gunshots living next to Farragut. Here in Port St. Lucie I have yet to hear a single gun shot. Knoxville ranks as one of the worst crime cities in the nation. There you have a 1 in 18 chance of becoming a victim of violent crime. Here in Port ST Lucie, 1 in 94. Look it up on Neighborhood scout and see for yourself. Also no more of those damn mountains, incessant trees with leaves everywhere, snow on the roads, Extremes of temperature. Here it stays within 15 degrees from night to day. There it could be 30 in the morning and 80 by afternoon, or vise versa. Goodbye and good riddens.

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Big City Problems, Small Town Amenities - 8/24/2020

I have lived many places in the US and can look back on all of them with fond memories. Sadly the same cannot be said for Knoxville. The city lacks culture with no decent local restaurants. The people are xenophobic and cliquish. I often was made fun of for being from somewhere else. Downtown is a wasteland with restaurants that locals talk about but the food lacks quality and the atmosphere appears sanitized and as if being set up as a test market for a new chain with frozen menu items that are nuked in the back. The parks and greenways are nice if you would like to encounter the cities homeless community or get robbed. My list could go on. Overall would find somewhere else to live. Cannot really find any positives about the area.

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No better place to raise kids or retire - 7/29/2020

I've lived in a lot of places and in several states. Knoxville, TN is by far my favorite because people are friendly, cost of living is good, weather is great, and there's just so much to do from mountain hikes to opera. It doesn't hurt that every high school graduate has the opportunity to attend the first 2 years of community college for free. And we have no income tax, so you pay taxes only when you spend money.

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Choose Chattanooga or Johnson City - 12/3/2019

I've lived in Knoxville for over 7 years now and it's grown on me. I don't particularly like Knoxville, but it's where my family lives for now. I think that it has some good things going for it (businesses do well here, growing area, pretty surrounding areas- Smoky Mtns, etc.) but still lacks a LOT of the things that a city of 200,000 people should have. Things I can't stand about Knoxville- Weather. The weather absolutely blows. It rarely snows, even when the rest of East Tennessee gets snow,, Knoxville is in a bowl and doesn't get much, if any, snow. Drivers. I've lived in a LOT of places. At least 8 states, five countries on three continents. Id rather drive around ANYONE from these other places than Knoxville drivers. It's absolutely terrible. City Planning- or the lack thereof. d Knoxville, until maybe the 90s or so was a rural town, with farming being a huge part of life. Whenever (not sure which decade?) Knoxville decided to modernize it's city life and do an urban renovation or expansion, they did ZERO planning. The roads are terrible and there is very little of the grid system (yes it works on hills, too), there are NO turning lanes in most of the city, roads are about 20 years behind for the amount of traffic that are on them and they DIDN'T plan or leave room for any expansion measures for when this happened. The people are really nice and would literally give you the shirt off their back or food off of their tables. They're what makes Knoxville a livable place.

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TN is bate and switch! - 10/17/2019

TN is not what is seems. Living in TN 5 months and relocation was a bad move. The state has been anything but enjoyable since day one. The water is muddy and nothing I want to kayak or swim in for sure! The people have been rude and not truthful to say the least. I have yet to find a home that is built correctly or livable!! The cost of homes is a joke for what condition they are in. If you want a decent home and please keep in mind it is not perfect even at that price point is over 400,000. We have been renting which is well over 1200.00 month for ghetto. They call themselves "Luxury" LOL far from it. They have not been truthful since day one. We were lied to and now living in hell till march when the contract runs out. I can only hope we move to a better place. Jobs in TN are slim and the pay scale is so low it does not keep up with the cost of living in this state. TN has won the lottery with CA and NY moving in and raising the prices. They have changed a state to be over priced for crap. The land has no value due to the lack of care for framing anymore. Subdivisions are tossed up and the lack of pride in the build is sad. Please do not let anyone take advantage of you or tell you lies. We have felt the pain since day one and now trying to figure out what to do. The food tax is 6.75 the taxes are 9.75 on items. Property taxes are on the rise along with other taxes since the CA and NY people are on the boards. It is getting nuts and the pay scales suck!!!!! The list grows and do not believe the realtors it is crap for homes. Renting is just as bad you have crap for under 1200 and it grows to 4000 monthly on a home. Yes, I say visit but do not move to TN.

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Knoxville is charming, but not much more than that - 3/11/2019

Let me start by saying that Knoxville is a very charming place, and if you are looking for a new place to live that is quiet, has a growing number of "hip" things such as breweries, restaurants etc, and is affordable, then it is certainly not a bad place to call home. I have been here for about two years, and have at times really enjoyed it. The problem is that it very often feels lifeless. I know many might disagree with this, stating that Gay street, Market square, and Old City are full of things going on. Yes there are events and parades, but the city just doesn't have a pulse. I have been fortunate to live in some bigger cities (MPLS, Seattle), and after a while I have found myself missing what bigger cities offer - art, culture, exploration, transit. I think Knoxville will be a great city 20 years from now, but right now bike infrastructure is a joke when compares to other cities, the airport is a hassle with few direct flights, etc. I love taking photos and exploring a city, but after one photoshoot day around the city, you're done. Unlike some other cities with endless curiosity and places to explore with your camera. One nice thing about Knoxville is its location. I have been able to explore Nashville, Atlanta, Asheville, Cincinnati, Savannah, and Charleston. So that being said, Knoxville is a great base to explore the South, but after having done all that, I am ready for a new place to call home. All in all I have tried my best to write a fair review for Knoxville. If you take it on its own terms, it is a charming, growing place to be. But it is not for everyone, and if you are looking for a place with a pulse, energy, design-focused, pedestrian-focused, etc then this is not a place for you. On the other hand, if you are looking for a low-key, charming, friendly, maker (arts and crafts / furniture), affordable, everyone knows everyone kind of town, then I'd recommend considering Knoxville for your next home! Feel free to reach out with any specific questions and I'd be happy to help.

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OK on paper, but ultimately not the town for us. - 2/4/2019

In 2017 we had the opportunity to move based on kids stages in school (and one had just graduated). Anywhere really as spouse's job is found everywhere, mine is a bit more limiting, but could likely find one within a reasonable commute of most places. We've lived urban and we've lived suburban as a family. We've lived in several states. So, during 2016/2017 we performed the paper exercise of evaluating various areas of the country to live. We even had a relative willing to let us buy a 3 acre plot of land in NE PA (but, small town and not the weather we were looking for). Knoxville came up high on our list for many of the reasons others list. In addition, we had vacationed a couple of times in Pigeon Forge, and Gatlinburg, and visited the Great Smokey Mtn Natl Park. Also, we have relatives in the MD/DC area and the drive from Knoxville would be reasonable for a holiday visit. Since we could drive to Knoxville from where we lived in OH, we decided to assess Knoxville in person during the early summer of 2017. We booked a hotel on the Northern side for 2 nights, we booked an AirBnB in an established neighborhood in the home of a retired, well educated couple who had lived in their home for 30+ years for 2 nights, and also booked an AirBnB in a established, desired neighborhood nearer to UT run by an educated young couple (with at least one toddler) who grew up in the area, although they had lived in another state for several years for work. We figured this would be good to get different perspectives when speaking with the AirBnB owners, and this was, in fact, helpful. In addition, they had some good insights on the roads, schools, ups/downs of the area over the years, etc. During the 6 days, we accomplished a lot: 1. We visited/toured a couple of private elementary schools, a private high school, and called some of the public schools in the districts we were considering, in order to ask some clarifying questions based on the info we could get on their individual websites. Everyone was helpful and informative. We quite liked the private schools and felt that the education was similar to what we have found when our kids have attended private schools in other places. FWIW, our kids have also attended public schools that we were happy with - but, we base their attendance on what will fit them best where we are living at the time. Overall, I strongly recommend looking at each district and private school website and doing a thoughtful comparison based on what is important for you or your kids, and definitely visit the schools in person. 2. We visited many small shops/stores and we were friendly, offering up that we were considering moving to Knoxville. Since we visited during the day when business was a bit slower and often attended by the owner or an older adult, we often had good conversations with these locals and were prepared with some basic questions we asked of all of them (that way we could see how they varied with their opinions, perspectives) and this was helpful. We made sure to go to a few shops a day and to always eat someplace new for each meal. We always spoke to each server too (usually a young person) to get their perspectives. As is usual everywhere I've ever been, some of these young people were not overly friendly, as some seem to be under the impression that they should be doing something more interesting than making some money. But the friendly ones were also helpful with their perspectives on Knoxville. 3. We worked with a realtor, and were open that we were considering a move, but it wasn't guaranteed. This realtor and staff were very nice and helpful. Also, I should add that this realtor was from this area for generations, had clearly done well for themselves, and were extremely well connected with what seemed like everyone. We saw several properties and I have to say that it was a bit odd: many properties trying to be flipped - old ones with a facelift listed for too much money. Or odd ones on odd properties. We were specifically looking for a minimum of 1 acre and 3 bedrooms minimum, under 300K. Some options, but we never loved anything we saw. In addition, if you pay attention to the architecture of the neighborhoods, you will see there are some distinct styles and you can age Knoxville's times of growth with the architectural styles. If you want to be in a certain school district, make sure you CALL the district to verify that address is IN the district. 4. We drove around a lot. We experienced the traffic, we experienced the terrain, we tried to find the things that would impact our daily life - like where are the grocery stores and conveniences like that and what were they like by walking through them. Knoxville has ridges to the north (towards Oakridge), and sits in a valley. There are main highways going through this valley and they are constrained, without much room to expand. Roads are narrow and clogged with traffic (away from the highways) because it is a lot more expensive to build road through these ridges than on flatter land. So, traffic is more of an issue in Knoxville than would be expected for this size town. This is true of getting out of town towards the National Park, and area East as the terrain does restrict the development of roads to some extent. 5. We attended church services of our denomination, which is a denomination that is a definite minority in Knoxville. We found the church service nice, and the people fine, although not really friendly as we were new faces. This church was relatively new in an area of some growth. I've found in all the places I've lived that people at church don't usually go out of their way to find the new people as they are at church on Sunday, with their family, sometimes extended family and are just not in that mindset to seek out new people, so this was not different than anywhere else I've been. Overall, we did NOT choose to relocate to Knoxville, and I think this was the right decision for us. Although we could have made it work for us, it didn't offer enough benefits to offset the challenges relating to moving a family and switching jobs and schools. The traffic and traffic flow, roads throughout the areas, and the presence of major highways in the narrow Knoxville valley was also a detriment. We drove to the MD/DC area from Knoxville for a family event, and it was a long drive, not just the miles, but the intensity of the traffic for the majority of the drive. We often (2-3x per year) drive to the MD/DC area from OH, and the distance is nearly identical, but the drive is easier from OH as the traffic is only heavy in certain areas, certain times, but eases at other points (at all times of the year), so this was a drawback as well. So, anyone considering a move to a new area, such as Knoxville, should visit the place. This is no guarantee of success, but it puts you into the environment. Consider the aspects of your daily life and seek these things out to see how they will be impacted with the move.

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Eastern Tennessee - Where Friendly Folks Live - 1/1/2019

Five Stars for Knoxville!!!Although I was born and raised in Eastern Tennessee, I have lived all over the United States; Palm Desert CA for 10 years - Belleair Beach, FL for 8 years - Highland Park, TX (suburb of Dallas) for 8 years and a few other cities. I recently moved back to East Tennessee. (6 years ago) I bought a beautiful home on Manor Road. One thing I really missed, while living in California Florida and Texas, was friendly people. Here in Eastern Tennessee; Rich, poor, black, white, gay, straight, redneck or white collar...everyone’s friendly. If you can’t make friends here, something’s wrong with YOU! You might just be one of those people that even Jesus Christ couldn’t please! I love being back in Eastern Tennessee. My parents who are elderly, have lived in the Sequoyah Hills neighborhood for 56 years. I was raised by proper SOUTHERN parents who taught us (my brother and I) at an early age to speak to everyone. Tennessee is so friendly. I can’t stress that enough. Anyone who says that the mountains aren’t friendly, they have issues that have nothing to do with Eastern Tennessee.

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Knoxville is a horrible place to live in 2018 - 9/22/2018

I made the grave mistake of moving back to Knoxville ten months ago, and will finally be leaving this godforsaken town next month. If Knoxville was a human being who paid a visit to a doctor, the physician would inform Knoxville that they are extremely unhealthy and only have a short time to live. Are there good people in Knoxville? Sure, any city has their share of good and bad people. But the vast majority of Knoxville's lifelong residents are uneducated, overweight idiots who are automatically distrustful of anyone "not from around here". Most of the decent people I've met over the past 10 months were only here temporarily (for school or work) and had a plan to escape as soon as they could. The people who are left in this town have no ambition, imagination or knowledge of how crappy this town is compared to most cities. Many Knoxville residents think a "road trip" involves driving to Pigeon Forge or Gatlinburg. Watch the local news any night and you'll see 22 minutes of depressing coverage directly related to the opioid epidemic, followed by sports and the weather. I'd estimate that 40% of the population is addicted to opioids, meth or alcohol, and that's a very conservative estimate. The opioid and meth addicts cause all sorts of issues for local businesses, including retail theft and robbery. Property theft is rampant. For a mid-sized city like Knoxville, the amount of serious crime that occurs on a daily basis is shocking. The city and county jails are literally overflowing with prisoners, so even people who commit serious crimes often receive just probation instead of prison, since there's simply nowhere to house all the bad people that populate this horrible place. Each year, you will find Knoxville ranked among the Top Ten unhealthiest cities in terms of the obesity rate and horrible air quality. But if you read the Knoxville News Sentinel and watch the local news, you'll see this city has much bigger problems than breathing dirty air and being obese. The problems caused by the opioid and meth addicts show no signs of abating anytime soon. Since most people in Knoxville either can't read or can't afford a television or electricity (since they need that money for drugs), they are ignorant to how bad the situation is, or they simply don't care. I have lived in several states and a number of medium to large sized cities, and I can honestly say that the culture in Knoxville is broken. People don't trust other people in Knoxville, because they realize deep down that they themselves shouldn't be trusted. Don't take my word for it. Just read the paper and watch the local news for a few days, and you will see that Knoxville is a city in crisis. Back in the 1990's, Knoxville was a terrific place to live. This formerly bucolic place is totally unrecognizable in 2018. You can bury your head in the sand and pretend things will get better, but all the drug and crime trends point to a bleak future for Knoxville. I used to love this place, but as a once-proud graduate of the University of Tennessee, I'm heartbroken to say that I will probably never return to the home of my alma mater after I leave. It's that bad and things have changed that dramatically for the worse over the past two decades.

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Like Boulder But Affordable - 7/27/2018

Knoxville is the best kept secret on the East coast. Since starting college at UTK in 2014, it has sprung to life with the effort that's been put in to revitalize the city. The streets are now wonderful, cyclist and pedestrian-friendly (and there is an increasing amount of bike infrastructure), and the buildings are all being renovated to their former glory. The influx of craft breweries and investment in the outdoors makes Knoxville one of the greatest little cities for an outdoorsy person like myself. With the Smokies just around 45 minutes away, you couldn't ask for better! I left for the West two months ago, and am now in the process of moving back because I miss it so!

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Listen to a local... - 3/27/2018

I've lived in Knoxville my entire life and I can certainly say that Knoxville DOES indeed have a pulse and a budding culture. Those that are saying otherwise are perhaps unwilling to find the pulse or are looking in the wrong places. No, Knoxville is no Portland (or even an Asheville), but it is well on its way to being there, and over the past 10 years Knoxville has grown and evolved tremendously. I see no indication of this trend stopping or slowing down either. If going to a "good ole' boy" church before tailgating at the UT game with your truck friends is the life for you, then you'll find it here. HOWEVER, if you'd rather sip on a craft beer while watching the Flaming Lips perform in a converted warehouse, then you'll find it here too at the Mill and Mine. Maybe you'd rather drink a locally produced nitro cold-brew coffee while reading Jack Kerouac, with ambient chillwave and trip-hop playing in the background. If so, you'll find it here too at Honeybee Coffee. You can go down to the IJAMS Nature Center rock quarry and rent a paddleboard in summer, and then go relax in your Eno by the river. You can go buy locally grown and produced honey and handmade pottery at the Saturday morning farmer's market in downtown (while eating the mojito popsicle you got from the craft popsicle food truck), after buying your craft beard tonic from the 30 year old guy with a handle-bar mustache. I could go on for a while...Knoxville is a vibrant city that is on its way to becoming a cultural hub of music, the arts, and zestful living. Of course this process isn't instantaneous. Yes, there is still a fair amount of tradition that can lead to some stigma and an otherwise retrogressive view of certain things. Yes, there are people here that won't get along with anyone that isn't a copy pasta version of themselves. But these people are in literally EVERY city on Earth, and you can't avoid them. This isn't as much of a problem in Knoxville as everyone on here is suggesting. I think that perhaps many of these people came here expecting to see this in action, thus, are more prone to either see it even when it doesn't exist, or likely to notice and point it out more when it happens versus when it doesn't happen. And maybe the ones complaining need to learn how to better interact and accept those that are different from themselves; maybe they aren't the progressive people-acceptors they think they are. Knoxville ins't perfect, but it is a living, breathing city that has a rich history and future. I do wish that the people and life overall was more vibrant here, but it's a process, and Knoxville is on the right track. The music scene is VERY diverse; you can go listen to everything from bluegrass to avant garde orchestral to hip-hop to noise rock. The food scene is booming with tons of craft breweries and craft restaurants popping up (including the nationally renown J.C. Holdway, which is truly a fantastic dining experience if you have the coin for it). There are places to go buy art, vintage toys and records, boutique clothing, musical instruments, books, and anything else you can think of. If you can't find it here, you're a close drive to Chattanooga, Asheville, Nashville, and Atlanta; three excellent cities with lots to do. Oh, and you're a hop and a skip away from one of the most famous national parks in the country, with all the nature and beauty you could want. I've hiked most of the Smokies at this point, and I can say it is a bucket list destination. Gatlinburg and Pigeon Forge are tourist deathtraps, but avoid those and you'll find some of the most pristine forests on the planet, plus several areas of preserved old growth forest, such as the spruce fir growths near Newfound Gap and Clingman's Dome. Come and see Knoxville for yourself and bring an open mind. Go find the vibrant things. Be an active participant. I think you'll like what you find.

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Misery - 3/20/2018

Do not move to Knoxville unless you like Bible Thumpers U.T. Football

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Selfish State - 1/27/2018

There are pros and cons to knoxville. Pros : jobs have good benefits Cheap gas, grocery, and living. Cons: Ut hospital is very unprofessional there nurses and doctors do Hippa violations. They give wrong diagnoses. The people are very selfish, act like crabs, and Careless. The men in the state Tn are nasty, dirty, and selfish. The women work harder than the men and get paid less. They do not help there homeless people as far as treat them with respect and help them get back on there feet. Go down to the greyhound station area nothing but thousands of homeless ppl outside. The people in work places are unprofessional and half way do there jobs. They treat single people like there a disease. Not friendly unless you have something they can use like car, big house, big degree or you know somebody that can put them on to something.

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Knoxville - 1/11/2017

We live in West Knoxville and have lived here about a year. I have lived in many places, full of diversity, and then not so diverse. Mostly, I do like West Knoxville, but my main concern is the quality of healthcare and air issues. West Knoxville Pros: Friendly people, except some people in Farragut Old-fashioned feel Beautiful views Kingston Pike area is nice, but once you get off the main roads, it turns into something out of Deliverance Slow pace of life, but seems to me a better place to retire Low traffic Cheap Housing Cheap Groceries West Knoxville feels safe East Knoxville needs improvement and I am afraid after dark (around the zoo area-where we are supposed to take our kids), and I've been to Camden, New Jersey. :-/ I cannot speak on the school system because we homeschool. There are a number of homeschooling options. A good number of parks Knoxville Cons: Healthcare is absolutely awful. Think about the ways other cities were doing things twenty years ago-that is is how doctors are still treating illnesses here. Children's hospital and care especially...no good. If you have a child with a chronic disease, this is not the place to be. I really wish I would have done more research. We have children with heart defects. They are not equipped to adequately care for children with special needs. This is all of the doctors I have dealt with here, not just one. The closest decent hospitals are Atlanta, Nashville, or Cincinnati. Air quality is terrible Very shotty housing construction. Pre-existing homes are older and need a lot of work. Otherwise, everyone seems to be self-proclaimed house flippers here and trying to make a buck.

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If you are thinking of moving here, or anywhere ne - 11/22/2016

Oh how we wish we had never moved to the Knoxville area! We researched everything before we did, but we had no idea about how low quality the people are here. We've been here 10 years and we still can't figure out what the heck is wrong with these people. We are affluent, educated, hard-working, loving, and social. We have the same values they espouse (but don't live up to), and we are ethnically like the large majority here. I could tell you stories about east Tennesseans and our interactions with them that would astonish you. We've tried everything to integrate and learn to like them over the course of the 10.5 years we have lived here. We have not made a single friend from this area. Our only friends are from elsewhere. They are only friendly if they think they can get something out of you, and when they do they don't even appreciate it - it just makes them want more. We've hired them, paid them more than they are worth, and STILL they don't do what you ask, don't show up on time (or at all), and lie even when the truth would work better to their advantage. Their words about being friends, are just words, there is no follow through. Yes, it is beautiful, inexpensive, conservative, has lots of churches (yah, get them outside of the building and see how they actually act), and there are tons of things to do outside (we like the weather at least), but the people have ruined it for us. We can't wait to get the heck away from these dishonest, lazy, distasteful, people. And get this - I grew up in KY! You would think they would at least be accepting of people from the south. Many places are hostile to Californians (even Texans who are the greatest people in the US), but these people are hostile to anyone not from their 20 mile radius. I've lived in Owensboro KY, Bowling Green, KY, Dallas, and Thousand Oaks, CA and I've never had trouble with people, until now. We have two homes here, one on the lake in Rockwood, TN and one in the city of Knoxville. Our girls have gone to school in both places, and even though they've lived here their whole lives they have trouble making REAL friends. Once you scratch the surface of the people here (even the kids) you find hostility, depression, negativity, big egos (totally unwarranted), and exclusion. Yes, it is beautiful, yes we could afford to build our dream home, yes the outdoor activities are fabulous, yes the schools are reasonably good within the city (NOT the country area), and yes we had such high hopes when we moved here, but NO it has not worked out for us - we are OUT of here ASAP!

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